Interview with Brian Harris
Leadership in the church really matters, but sadly it is often undermined by toxic leaders hitting the headlines. Yet often the most spiritual people in the church do not make strong leaders. So how can we square the circle?
In his new book Stirrers and Saints, Brian Harris offers a timely appeal for Christians of all personality types to answer God’s call to be leaders in the church, stirring things up and providing ‘saintly’ leadership. By exploring spiritual formation practices, studying biblical leaders, and providing practices to help us become leaders, Brian provides practical resources to raise godly leaders who can lead well.
Brian Harris heads up Avenir, a leadership institute based in Australia, and is a theologian, pastor and former Bible college principal.
Brian, can you tell us a little about yourself?
I wear a fair number of hats! I’ve been Rosemary’s husband for over 40 years, we have three married children and three delightful grandchildren. Keeping up with the three theme, we’ve lived in three countries (South Africa, New Zealand and Australia) and I’ve had three kinds of “career” – Pastor, Theologian and Leadership Consultant. They all overlap, and after 17 years as principal of a theological college training people to serve as pastors and in mission organisations, I now head up both Avenir Leadership Institute and the Centre for Faith and Life, while also serving as the Pastor at Large for Carey Baptist Church, in Perth, Australia.
Why did you decide to write Stirrers and Saints?
I’m really concerned that many genuinely godly people are not good leaders, and many good leaders are not godly. I’m deeply committed to shaping leaders who are spiritually well formed, and the book explores spiritual formation for leadership, doing a deep dive into both spiritual formation and leadership. Its thesis is that we need people who are both stirrers (leaders) and saints (spiritually well formed), and it has many practical exercises and insights which can help with both.
Who have you written this book for?
Thoughtful Christian people who take their spiritual formation seriously and are open to God inviting them to step into leadership. Many will be quiet, even reluctant leaders, but they are willing to raise their hand to God’s invitation to lead, even if it is a quivering hand.
There are lots of books on leadership, what makes your book different?
It insists that moral formation for leadership is a non-negotiable, and that it is ongoing. It then provides realistic tools to help in the journey, weaving together insights on spiritual formation with biblical concepts, leadership theory, and practical exercises. Many leadership books have one big idea that gets repeated over and over. This offers much more.
You encourage all different styles of leadership within the church – not just the most obvious upfront, ‘charismatic’ leadership trait. What do you think the ‘quieter’ leadership trait brings to the table?
I initially explored the idea of quiet leadership in my book The Tortoise Usually Wins (Paternoster, 2013). I think it’s important that quiet leaders step up, as they are often more systematic (they move one step at a time); consistent (they know the direction they need to head in); resilient (they are not dependant on adrenalin rushes, and know how to work through disappointment); humble (and therefore willing to listen and learn); and other-centred (they know it is not all about them). Quiet leaders see the journey through – they don’t give up quickly or flippantly. This is not to say there is no place for charismatic leaders (there certainly is), but I am keen to speak words of encouragement to those who do not see themselves as natural leaders. I also think it is important that we think in terms of leaderships (plural) rather than leadership (singular). There are many different chairs we can lead from, and we are best served when we all develop the leader inside of us (and there is a leader inside of most people – even those who say there isn’t!) To do this well, we need to acknowledge that there are many ways to lead. Finding your own leadership voice is important.
You divide the book into 3 parts – can you explain a little more about this structure and why it is important?
Suggesting our life is like a book being written, Stirrers and Saints asks us to locate our current life chapter, and to investigate the opportunities for formation it offers. It advocates that we start where we are, rather than where we think we should be or would like to be. It points toward resources to help our spiritual growth, and how to interact with them constructively. It looks at our relationship with the church, Scripture and prayer, and asks how practices like mindfulness and watchfulness can be of assistance. It invites us to embrace our disappointments and failures as friends who have much to teach us. It includes several exercises and asks many probing questions. It is intentionally challenging.
The second part of the book then looks at three exemplary leaders in the Bible, Moses (a reluctant leader), Daniel (a principled leader) and Mary (who led from the second chair). Though they led thousands of years ago, many of their leadership practices remain relevant. For preachers, this part of the book provides excellent sermon material, and I imagine many will use it! I included this section as I thought it important to ground the books discussion in the rich stories we find in the Bible. You really can’t beat them!
The books closing section then looks at and applies leadership theory, especially asking how we can lead if we are quiet leaders or if we are leading in a liminal season, when it is not clear in what direction we should head.
In terms of the logic behind this order, the book is saying: Here is your life, here is your book, here is some relevant theory – now integrate them and be the spiritually formed leader God has called you to be.
You talk about the 7 ‘S’s’ of leadership: A leader should be a Stirrer, Saint, Servant, Shepherd, Steward, Seer and Sage. We often talk about being a shepherd, a servant and a steward, but not often about the others. How did you come up with these 7 and why?
My first book on leadership (The Tortoise Usually Wins) speaks of three “S” words to describe leaders: servant, shepherd and steward – but subsequently many people have suggested great additions – and stirrer, saint, seer and sage made it onto the list, and rightly so, for when leaders are around, things happen (stirrer), but the things that happen are only good if the leader is morally formed and ethical (saint), and leaders need to anticipate the future (seer), but to do so wisely (sage). More recently my son-in-law suggested I add sculptor… for leaders certainly sculpt reality, seeing in blocks of granite what others can’t imagine. You never know, if I get to write a third book on leadership it might have twelve “S” words!
What would you say to someone who feels that they might be called to leadership but don’t feel equipped or confident about stepping into the role?
That’s a great place to be. The hesitant and humble usually stay close to God and are open to learning and growth. I am not being facetious. Humility is a pre-requisite to growth (the arrogant think they already know). Leadership skills can be learnt – so not yet knowing them is not a disqualifier, just an invitation to learn them. We should differentiate between leadership (a task) and leader (a person). Reluctant leaders can learn to do the tasks that leaders need to do. It’s about responding to God’s call despite our fears.
What was the most challenging element of writing this book?
I started it pre-covid, and then the world changed – and more specifically, many aspects of my own world changed. Together with some close friends I started a leadership consultancy, so life has been very full and exciting – but writing takes time! The bottom line is that the book took more than twice the time to write than I expected. I’m a bit of a “stick to your deadline” person, so I’ve had to learn to be kind to myself about this!
And what was the most rewarding element of writing this book?
People who read the early drafts told me about tangible ways in which it has helped them. That is very, very humbling, but also deeply satisfying. It has also birthed Stirrers and Saints – the Podcast, and it’s so much fun putting that together. I love the conversations it has started.
How can leaders/ leadership teams use your book?
Don’t gallop through it. There are 13 chapter in it. Pause after each and talk through the issues raised. Do the exercises it suggests. Some are potentially transformative. Make use of the reflection exercises at the end of each chapter and explore them as a team. Doing it together as a team or small group has huge benefits and will help you to understand, value and support each other more fully.
What do you hope readers will most get out of reading this book?
A conviction that they can and should be a stirrer and a saint. And I hope it’s a conviction they act upon.
In one sentence, how would you describe Stirrers and Saints?
It says: you (yes you!) can step up into leadership, but take your spiritual formation seriously, and here are some tools to help you.
Is there anything we can pray for you?
That having encouraged others to be stirrers and saints, I would be one as well…